Martina Melilli, Bodily Conversations

THE THANATOESTHETE

When I was in high school, in the third year, my grandfather died. We were very close, for me it was a really hard moment. I remember well a phone call in which my mom, a few days before my grandad died, told me that she was sure we had just a few days before he would have left us, and that if I wanted to say goodbye, that was the moment. I decided not to go to say bye to him for the last time. I wanted to keep the memory of him, of his body, healthy. He was a tall man, with big shoulders, charming, with a lively look, an expression that was always sly. I decided not to go to the funeral home either. I saw him “alone” at the funeral, the closed light wooden coffin. And in the photo that is still affixed to his tombstone in the cemetery today. Which is an identical copy of the one I’ve always kept in my wallet ever since. Over the years my mom has often told me how it was the moment she felt him leaving, my mom that at that moment was the person lying next to him and holding him in her arms. “A long breath and I felt life going out, go away forever.” We don’t often talk about the dead body, we don’t easily relate to death in our society. For example, to me, who took years to decide to visit my grandfather’s tombstone at the cemetery, that meant accepting the fact that he would never really come back, that it was true that he was gone. Not me, who can’t see a horror movie, a zombie movie, because I’m afraid of them, more of what they represent than of what they are, fake. A few years ago I saw differently the relationship with dead bodies in the cinema, in a film that somehow spoke of beauty, death and the relationship between the two. It was The Neon Demon, by Nicolas Winding Refn. One of the protagonists in a morgue approached corpses: not only did she put makeup on them, but she touched them. There was a form of eroticism, of attraction. Lots of beauty. I think there was also a kiss in one scene. Or maybe my memory has added it to it. That movie in general shocked me a lot, and I really liked it (contrary to most of the criticisms that you can find on the internet today). They call it horror and I could therefore say that it is the first horror that I, a chronic coward, have ever seen (not immediately). And at the same time it made me rethink my grandfather’s dead body, which I didn’t want to see, how mine could be, how I might wish it was prepared, dressed, made up, what my last image could be on this earth, before it dissolves forever.

Simona is (not only) a thanatoesthete, she dedicated her life to death and (its) beauty. Chatting with her was an incredible experience, which I would recommend to anyone. And luckily for us, I can anticipate that two books written by her will come out in the coming months. I admit that I can’t wait to have them in my hands.

PB Introduce yourself: what is your job and how old are you (roughly)?

SP I’m Simona Pedicini, I don’t say my age because I’m a lady, especially with me, I go beyond the age factor. And I am, in this moment of my life, what I always wanted to be: a thanatoesthete, thanatopractor. I am a researcher of the history of female mysticism in the Counter-Reformation era and in the history of thanatology. I am a master of ceremonies and a sindonologist. Those are my passions.

PB What kind of knowledge do you have of the body?

SP This is an important question for me. Because I have a specific knowledge of a body identity different from the one we are used to think about. I work on, I work with and for corpses. I work in a condition in which there is a body present but an absent life, there are no longer what we see as the perceptions of life. The sounds of life: there is no longer a form of heartbeat, of breath. So it is another, totally different dimension of a body, that is the history of life. What I work with is the story of what actually remains of life.

PB Can you tell me about your discipline and the approach that has to the body?

SP I specialized in thanatoesthetics in Modena, at the TerraCielo Funeral Home, which is one of the largest and most important structures in Italy, because it is among the very few, probably the only one, that allows you to have an immediate approach with the corpse; it does not include a practice with a mannequin. So it is an immediate, very fast immersion in the thanatoesthetic practice. How was mine: I arrived and the same day that I started the course, the theoretical part, there was the first corpse to be manipulated. And there I started to really understand what thanatoesthetics was. Before I knew it, I had heard about it, I was deeply passionate about it. We are in a country where we are unfortunately relatively familiar with this discipline. Abroad, thanatoaesthetics is spoken about daily and it is a fully recognized science and profession. It is a set of practices that are sometimes aimed at the aesthetic care of the corpse so that it can be presented with the coffin open and granted to the last goodbye of the mourners, so that the mourners have a memory, an image of their loved one without the signs of death. It goes on to a  series of successive sequences ranging from manipulation, from massaging the actual body to breaking what we all know as rigor mortis, so that the body can be undressed and clothed. It then continues with a phase of disinfection, washing, saturation of the orifices, up to the best known practices ranging from dressing to cosmetics, make-up, which perhaps among many is also the most delicate phase, because it is the restitution of beauty to the body, but it is also a step that requires skills, and an aesthetic sensitivity different from those we are used to. However, putting make-up on a corpse means being aware of touching a skin that is no longer absorbent, as if it was a wall. So there is a search for shades, gradations, so it is necessary to keep in mind what the lights are: if the corpse is exhibited in a house, inside a morgue, inside a crematorium, … it has the final result of restoring dignity to the history that is being manipulated at that moment. Thanatopractices in Italy are allowed but not performed, unlike what happens in the United States for example. And it is a practice that involves a sort of temporary embalming of the corpse and allows exposure to an open coffin for a period of 30 to 60 days. It involves an injection of a conservative and antibacterial liquid that blocks the decay of the body. In the United States it is a practice performed on perhaps 90% of corpses, and most families practice it and decide to practice it on those bodies that they want to keep at home for such a long period of time in order to have a gradual detachment, the time it take to mourn, to begin to process a pain as strong as that of the loss of a relative. The time, even rationally and emotionally, to understand that who we loved, who we knew is in a different dimension. For us, unfortunately, it is always an excessively short time.

PB How did your biography and this passion and then this practice intersect?

SP I started a long time ago, from the world of research, and even more from the studies on the Holy Shroud, which brought me closer to the mystery of death and the mystery of even an absent body, but a body of which there was still a testimony. And I’ve been wondering ever since what kind of shape death could have, and what shape the corpse could have. Then I did the studies in the History of Female Mysticism (ed. The study of the saints and the blessed, all ecclesiastical, who had paths of internalization and externalization of the divine, such as ecstatic rats, visions, apparitions, an intimate and profound relationship with the divine), and even there the sense of the mystery of death remained, but there were different bodies there: female bodies, present bodies, manipulated by the ecclesiastical authority for a long time. Their relationship with the divine was absolutely condemned and opposed by the Church, which could not in any way control the conscience of these women, but what the Church thought it could easily control was their body. So the story of mysticism is a story of unveiling their bodies to understand what they really concealed, whether the god or the devil, which was the question that the church has always asked itself. But I have known death in mystical and theological texts. And I kept wondering what shape it really had. And then it happened, as happens to many people, to meet the death personally, to have an authentic contact with her. And it was an important moment in my life, the condition in which for a long time I left an important part of me, not having the tools at the time, not even having understood what death really was. And the transition from the texts, from that experience, to the autopsy chamber was then gradual but necessary. I kept wanting to understand what was the form of death, what it smelled like, what temperature it might have. It was painful but necessary, as if the circle had closed itself. I rediscovered everything I had read, my life experience, and I also found myself.

PB Are you catholic? Does your education start from a path of faith?

SP I have never had faith, I have never believed in what is christianly considered God. I believe that there is a different form of search for spirituality, but not the Christian one. And probably the fact of not having faith was also a good thing, because it has maintained this desire to enter a dimension of real mystery, which is a dimension that I still cannot reveal, which is also the reason why I continue to carry out this profession. Because the mystery is there, it is in the room where I manipulate the corpse, it is in that body and in the story that I do not know. And it is perhaps the greatest mystery ever.

PB So when you say that you are a funeral director, are you referring to the person who is celebrating the funeral not in a specific religious context?

SP Exactly. If we imagine the funeral as kind of theatrical representation, the protagonist is the corpse, then there is a choir who are the mourners and a manager, who is the funeral director, the one who organizes and carries out the entire ceremony, who accompanies both the deceased, but above all, the pain of the mourners, in ceremonies that are not only and not exclusively Christian; who are respectful of everyone’s profession of faith but also of no profession of faith. Does not provide with a recitation of prayers but provides with a reading of passages chosen by the family, by the deceased, a selection of music, a selection of gestures as well. Because then this figure of the manager, the master of ceremonies, has a rituality to carry out himself, which is made up of movement, intonation, accompanying gestures. It is as if he/she then lets the corpse go beyond the curtain and then he/she remains to console the pain of the audience.

Unfortunately, very little is known about secular ceremonies in our country. Most are practiced in crematory temples, but they are always at the request of the deceased, or of the mourners. It is not easy to be able to enter a cultural system as strongly closed and hostile as ours. It is extremely complicated to be a funeral director, but also a thanatoesthete, they are also very marginal, liminal figures, compared to the one we all know in celebrating a funeral ceremony but also accompanying the deceased.

PB What kind of relationship do you have with your own body? And with others?

SP It is a complex relationship with my body, of continuous discovery, there are parts of me that I love deeply and they are the same parts, however, that constitute my real limit. Like the eyes, from an aesthetic point of view and from a metaphorical point of view. 90% of perceptions come from sight, the remaining 10% from all other senses, equally distributed. So sight is the first and most important way to relate to others. The eyes are at the same time what allows me to approach the body of others, but at the same time they are what limits me, because they are the boundaries I have when sensing the mystery: I know that what I see is not the dimension in which I enter when I accompany the deceased. I have absolutely a positive relationship with the body of other people, much more than I have it with mine. There is always this desire to cross the threshold, to go further, to set out on other paths. As with the sense of smell, it is the same thing. That too is the most important part of giving meaning. Probably because I’m almost deaf, I have a hearing problem. And it is true that where nature takes, at the same time then gives. This enhanced my sense of smell. So my relationship with life is made up of this, I recognize anyone by smell and all my memories are related to smell. And what I noticed is, even in my profession, that in the end the sense of smell is what most gave me the sense of death, as for life, which is a sort of continuity without any break between the one and the other.

PB Through your experience of the body, yours and that of others, what was the discovery that most struck you over time?

SP I think it was the warmth of touching. It is something that I often do with the people I meet, to touch them. I have a particular fondness for hands. And I touch them lightly because it always amazes me to hear how differently the warmth of the touch can be. And it was a surprise even when I started working, because I never felt that warmth. And so it was the moment in which I was able to give a definition to death, just as I was able to give a definition to life, which instead it is a practice that I almost always do.

PB A particular feature of your profession – in relation to the body – that fascinates you?

SP Well, there is one, I don’t know if wrongly or rightly , real presumption, even a form of narcissism in wanting to take the people I accompany to eternity. And of wanting to block that instant in eternity, because the time in which I manipulate, the time in which I dress or make up a corpse is as if I had dominion over death and could still keep that person with me. And at the same time I begin to walk and accompany him/her towards a threshold, a dimension that is beyond. And there are moments in which there is also the presumption of being able to cross that threshold together, and often there is also a fear of no return. Then I always come back.

PB If you had to summarize in one word, what is the body for you?

SP It is happiness and mystery.

PB What do you think is one of the most underestimated, or least taken into account, aspects of the body? (and why do you think so?)

SP Well also the fact that an interview like ours is being done and that this interview is published on a certain type of newspaper is proof of how the knowledge of what our bodies is fragmented, because there is an image of corporeality that is almost always disconnected, as if it was an isolated content, as if it was a different content than what we really are. Instead, the body is the full realization of what we actually are, and also that boundary and that limit within there is an infinite world, which is our real world. And many times this is not really taken into consideration, it is not evaluated for its real importance, for its real value, not only of content but of full realization instead.

For us who live in a context where Christian indoctrination has been so strong, so oppressing, the practice of body care is a practice that has always been condemned, as well as a happy and joyful manifestation of physicality and corporeality. And it is no coincidence that it is the Christian context that has the greatest difficulty in accepting the figure of the thanatoesthete, in also accepting the idea of ​​manipulation of the body, because where death takes place, where the final moment arrives, that body returns to become nothing, ashes, returns to become what it has always been.

PB On the other hand, what do you have more difficulties to accept, to welcome, of the body, what aspect do you experience as a limit?

SP Perhaps this, and it was more or less the speech I was making with respect to the look, the sight. There are many times when, although I have a positive relationship with my body, I realize how strongly the body is limiting and how it is difficult to contain excesses of moods, which can be excesses of happiness, of desire, of deep pain. It is as if there were no escape routes, there were no possibilities, so that what you really deeply feel could come out. Because it is true that words are great, however it is also true that they are strongly limiting when describing how someone feels in depth, and therefore the body remains the main mean of expression. But our skin is a container and a limit at the same time. And it transpires but fails to emanate everything that really stirs and animates our body.

PB What aspect of the body in general, and of your body in particular, would you like to know better, or explore more?

SP Hearing, because it is a mystery to me, not having had the perception of the sounds that everyone has. Even a pen falling from a table, a crash, an applause, a laugh, I wonder what its real sound might be. And it’s a huge mystery to me.

PB What do you think is an aspect of the body that we should absolutely know, make known, study more?

SP I believe it is the happiness of feeling beautiful, of liking ourselves, of taking care of our body, because it is what then allows us to also have a relationship of absolute positivity with the body of others. And this should be a fundamental teaching, because we still live in a kind of guilt in taking care of ourselves, in exhibiting, in showing ourselves, in presenting ourselves in any way, unless you fall into a category that is the generally accepted one, the category of the pleasant, or the beautiful, or the acceptable. And it should probably be a task, a path to take from an early age, instead of not being able to accept ourselves, which is a term and a concept that I don’t like, because accepting as a term is highly limiting. To like ourselves, to deeply like ourselves.

It would be interesting if everyone started touching each other as a child, liking each other. To know our body, to understand how it is made, because there is always this sort of orientation to first know the body of others because it becomes then a sort of term of comparison and comparison. What is the body of others is in what we often fail to be. And instead, probably taking a different path, learning to understand what we are, and learning to touch, to feel, can lead to a condition where what one is, is not necessarily a limit compared to others, a minus. It is simply what we are. Which is never “simply”.

PB Speaking of the concept of beauty, how do you define or redefine the beauty of a dead body that you try to make beautiful, compared to a different canon of beauty? How does one person relate to the concept of beauty in this sense?

SP It is a question that I have also asked myself. And that’s the reason why I intend, which in part I already do but I will do even more, specialize in dressing, in the manipulation of a particular type, which is that of the body of women, especially of women whose life has taken away the beauty, because it is right that death finds us all beautiful when it arrives. The moment I enter a house, I am called for the dressing of a body, I do not know the body, I know nothing of the history of the corpse, a history that I start reconstructing since I set foot in the house, gradually, as if they were a series of images that add up, looking at everything around me, the furniture, the furnishings, the books, the photos. It is as if you were stealing fractions of life. And in the end I realized how beauty is giving back what life has simply taken away from that corpse, what it was when it was alive.

PB Which portion or part or surface, even a very small one, of your body represents you, or do you like most?

SP I have no idea what it is called in scientific anatomical terms, but it is this part of the body here (ed. Indicates the sign that “cuts” the chin in two horizontally), it is similar to a cut, and the cut has always been for me a channel of communication with the outside world.

 

THE OSTEOPATH

We all have a body. We like it, but more often not. Whether we care or not. We know our body, fully or partially, because it’s something that has always been with us. Beyond the personal self-criticism – you know, we are always the biggest judges of ourselves – we live in a time and in a society that leaves very little space for “diversity” in its broadest sense. And even in unfolding what we summarily define as “diversity”, we immediately end up canonizing it in other equally typified categories. And if you don’t exactly fit here, or there, then you are not, you are not worthy, you are not doing well, you do not exist. In addition to this, the body that is proposed to us in the common and collective imagination is often a fragmented, broken body: pieces of bodies in magazines, online, details, filaments, muscles, specific focuses, parts. Disconnected, filtered, (un) pumped.

With my body, I have always had a relationship that I would define conflictual. I have never liked it very much, and it, the body, partly as a defense and partly by nature, has not been very cooperative with health and annexes. My body, those of others, mine through those of others and the body in general have become the protagonists of obsessive thoughts. The desire to know more and more ended up becoming a real research (thanks to my personal attitude and also to the work that I have chosen) of deepening it together with those who know the body, use it, made it material and instrument of work, of investigation, of expression, field of experimentation, of battle, in various senses. This is what I would like these interviews to be: intimate “dialogues” about the body, between me – this body – and the body of these people. With bodies in absence, virtual. And some low-resolution images, probably blurred, like every close look, the result of online conversations. And the first conversation could only be with an osteopath, because my encounter with osteopathy (I was 18) and the concepts on which this discipline is based opened up an unknown world to me, made up of balances and close correlations between micro and macro, between inside and outside, between cause and effect, which has totally changed my way of seeing things, not only in relation to the body. So here we are:

PB Introduce yourself: what is your job and how old are you (more or less)?

GDF I turn 38 in December. My name is Gabriele de Felice. I am an osteopath. And I teach biomechanical anatomy in a complementary medicine academy.

PB What kind of knowledge do you have about the body?

GDF My path of work on the body comes from physical preparation. As a child I had several health issues, which initially led me to not have a good relationship with my body at all. As soon as I was able to start playing sports, I realized that I was good at them, and my body became a bit of a shield: keeping people far was a defense system, a way of not being approached. I worked in accounting, and I was a personal trainer in my free time. Then for a series of vicissitudes, this became my first job, dealing in particular with rehabilitation. I began to deepen this aspect through massage, which is still a great passion of mine, beyond the kinesiological part (it is the science that studies rational human movement in all of their forms) in the strict sense: I have the need to massage, to put my hands on the body, because somehow it makes me feel right too. But I felt something was still missing. For various reasons, I passed through the hands of a dentist who collaborated with an osteopath, and I was completely fascinated by his diagnostic system. From that moment on I attended an adequate course of study which I then integrated with a higher university training course in holistic and bio-natural sciences. I also did three years of yoga school. So, let’s say that I have always been attracted to even the most subtle parts of how bodies work, because the more you know it, the more you understand that there is something more behind the physical problems.

PB It is interesting that at first you were avoiding physical contact and then that same contact became essential for you (when you talk about massage for example) …

GDF In reality, I have always sought contact, but I was afraid of it, because having contact means uncovering yourself, getting naked. I was very afraid of feeling some kind of emotion. And so, I found myself living many years of my life in a dystonic way, escaping from contact, from an expression of movement of a type, believing I felt better in the role of a bear … and then with time things started to change, slowly…

PB Can you tell me about your discipline, osteopathy, and the approach it has towards the body?

GDF At the base of osteopathy, as of all holistic disciplines, there is the triangle of health: mind, body and spirit. The triangle is equilateral. All three aspects are of equal value. The body has the same value as the mind (understood from a strictly neurological point of view) which has the same value as the spiritual part, understood as the emotional part. The individual is seen as a whole, as a system composed of muscles, skeletal structures and internal organs that find their connection in the nerve centers of the spine. Each constituent part of the person, including the psyche, and the environment in which he lives, it is dependent on the others and the proper functioning of each ensures the functioning of the entire structure: therefore, well-being. Usually, the osteopath is considered as a “bone tanner”, as the wizard who arrives, performs two maneuvers and the pain is gone, or as the one who makes your body “crack”. In reality, the osteopathic approach is based on listening. The osteopath’s diagnostic system is based on perceptual palpation. It’s a bit complex to explain but briefly, the body moves even when we are standing still, it has intrinsic expressions of movement such as the internal organs, or the breath. We are able to refine the touch in order to perceive the mobility restrictions of the structure, to feel its movement and situations in which there is less mobility or immobility. Usually where signs of mobility are lacking or the movement is altered, there is the problem. The therapist’s role is to eliminate the “obstacles” to the body’s ways of communicating in order to allow the body, using its own self-regulation system, to achieve healing.

PB What relationship do you have with your own body? And with other people’ bodies?

GDF I am a person who needs to be active, I like sports, to train, it helps me to think. I am addicted to physical activity. I definitely care about my body. I like everything about the body and its expressions in general. The sexual and erotic component, which is an expressive form, has always played a big role in my life. I like to cook, eat, and drink. Even if the kind of life I have leads me not to overdo it. Then I often ask myself if I lead this type of life precisely in order not to overdo it, because I am prone to vices, or if it is the other way around. I will tell you … With other people’ bodies, I have always been extremely curious, an observer. It drives me crazy to see other people’ bodies change in different situations and over time. For me, a trip on the subway is something wonderful, there is a lot of information to filter on which I write in my mind some incredible novels.

PB Through your experience of the body, yours and that of others, what was the discovery, regarding the body, that struck you mostly over time?

GDF I am prone to amazement, and I am often amazed. But one thing that amazed me a lot is the discovery of the intentionality behind the touch. If I touch you, it is clear that there are different ways of touching, but with the same touch you also feel the intention. This thing is transmitted through a whole series of physiological mechanisms that I will not explain here, but that is not the point anyway. When you touch many people in the end you acquire information even if you don’t know it, and inside you a whole statistical network is formed which then leads you to draw conclusions … This is beautiful. And at the beginning it is difficult to filter this information, you are hit by such an amount of data that at the end of the day you get overwhelmed. Then you learn to shield yourself a little.

PB A particular feature of osteopathy that fascinates you?

GDF It is a continuous growth, a continuous evolution. It’s an approach that evolves with you and that carries everything you learn along the way. You grow up and your approach changes; your way of thinking changes, and therefore your way of interpreting situations. The approach changes with any implementation of your personal culture: if you read a book that has nothing to do with anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, your approach changes, you take a certain type of vacation and your approach changes, and this is beautiful.

PB If you had to summarize in one word what the body is for you, what would it be?

GDF The body is the best medium we have to express ourselves.

PB What do you think is one of the most underestimated, or least taken into consideration, aspects of the body? And why do you think so?

GDF The body is always considered too superficially. And this is not good. It is dysfunctional. And this way of seeing the body poisons the mind, and consequently also the spirit that returns to the body, because it is all surface. I do not want to make superficial demagoguery, but what body does a whole generation see on Instagram profiles? And then afterwards you are afraid of contact.

PB What do you do most struggle to accept, to welcome, of the body, what do you experience as a limit?

GDF I would like to have more acute senses. But otherwise, I find nothing limiting. We have a huge potential that we don’t use.

PB What do you think is something about the body that people should absolutely know, teach, study more?

GDF The importance of breathing. The physiological and psychological effects of breathing are underestimated. It should be taught as a child. In fact, I am trying to develop a yoga project in elementary schools. Breathing affects the postures that a person takes, how he stands in different situations. With breathing you can energize, calm, relax, go down into a meditative or trance state. It is a very powerful tool that has been given to us and of which we know practically nothing.

PB Which portion or part or surface, even a very small one, of your body represents you, or do you like, the most?

GDF My beard, which I don’t really know if it represents me. I still have to figure out if I really like it because it hides, or because I don’t have hair on my head (laughs, ed). Then there are three things that have always been appreciated by other people: the butt, this angioma on the eyelid and the area of ​​the iliac crest.

 

THE LYRICAL SINGER

I’ve always enjoyed singing. And I’m pretty good at it. As a teenager, I was the karaoke star of the Paduan suburbs. And before that, I had almost been part of the white voices choir of the church in my hometown. Even today in my mental jukebox, the church songs are repeated in shuffle mode between the indie ones and the 80s rock ones. But even before, I showed off my singing skills: among my family members is popular an audio cassette found several years ago, in which a six-year-old me tries to emulate an opera singer who sings an aria about Venice. Or maybe it was yet another church song? Maybe. I loved music since the beginning, I grew up listening to a lot of music, of all kinds, I have a good ear, but I have never been able to play an instrument, and the fact that I have a beautiful voice and I can get away with singing made me make peace with living this passion in a purely passive way. There was a moment when I thought I would be a singer when I grew up. The rock star. For a shorter moment – as the audio cassette shows – I thought about opera, I admit. The full orchestra behind, beautiful costumes, and insanely beautiful voices. But, opera singers are “fat” – I said to myself. And I’ve always had the worry of being too fat. So no, the opera singer no. Then I grew up, I took (also) other paths, I started attending (as well) the opera, and not caring (more or less) about the weight or what others define as “beautiful”. And I found out that opera singers aren’t all robust anyway. On the contrary. What is always present in the Opera is the powerful voice and the beautiful costumes.

PB Present yourself: what’s your job and how old are you (more or less)?

CO I am Chiara Osella, I am 32 years old and I am an opera singer. I also run a project,  born almost as a joke, then turned into what has become my general research path in the field: mixing styles, making accessible a repertoire that is seen so far away, so difficult, it’s called Swing Opera. Lately, I have also been working with the world of dance and theater.

PB What kind of knowledge do you have of the body?

CO I am the daughter of a doctor and a midwife, so my approach to the body has always been very scientific. There have never been any taboos in my house from a physical, sexual, or emotional point of view. On the contrary. Then with the singing practice, I definitely went to explore different internal mechanics. The vocal singing technique leads you to consider the body as a musical instrument, to think which are your resonance boxes, the points to vibrate, the diaphragmatic breathing, and breathing in general. The body becomes an instrument that must go beyond an entire orchestra without the use of microphones. And in the Opera work, this technique is accompanied by the acting one, which teaches how to build a character, how to get out of the daily dynamic of movement to look for a more expressive one.

PB Which relations do you have with your own body? And with others?

CO These techniques, singing, acting, and dancing, all require great perseverance and discipline. With my body, as well as with my mind, I have the same problem: I would like them to be always ready; I want my body always strong, lean, handsome, snappy. Instead, the body needs perseverance, care, and dedication. The moment you stop exercising, the body feels it immediately. As well as if you stop practicing singing. To me, my body is a tool that requires a lot of care. What I struggle most is to give it the care it constantly needs. Another reflection about the body is how much it’s connected to the mind: they are absolutely interrelated. Exploring your body helps you to explore parts of your mind. The relationship with other people’ bodies is certainly something that also passes through your mind, it’s a connection that must be created. Often the stiffness of the body then carries over into the voice or character construction, leading to difficulties on stage and teamwork.

PB Through your experience of the body, your own and that of others, what was the discovery that most affected you over time?

CO Surely the body-mind connection, the realization of how often thoughts, anxieties, fears are also connected to physical enclosures. Working on the body can help you overcome mental blocks. And then, I generally believe in this technique, of feeling powerful when you are able to manage your body, taking it further and further to the limits, always pushing it beyond.

PB A particular feature of your profession that fascinates you?

CO The completeness. The fact that it truly gives me the ability to relate to anything and constantly enriching myself. I am always very curious, even a little restless. I always need new stimuli. And surely this profession gives them to me. Precisely because it is a complete discipline. There is not only the part we have talked about so far, the physical and technical one, but there’s also the entire literary research, the libretto, the connection with history, society, the visual arts, customs, literature. And it allows you to travel, to know many people, cultures, many stories, speak different languages. And then surely the fact that it is a universal language. The fact of being able to arrive with images, with music, with emotions to every kind of generation, culture, age, is one of the strongest things that I believe are part of this discipline.

PB When I was younger, I always imagined opera singers with a certain body, a certain physicality. Then when you attend Opera, you realize that it’s not true. There is, but also no … Do you think there is actually a correlation between singing ability and chest capacity, or is it just an image that has wrongly passed on  during the years?

CO Surely the body is used as a sound box, so it often mirrors the type of voice you have – big bodies have great voices. There was a time when the voice was the absolute master, so beauty and movement on stage were not taken into consideration. Callas was the one who unhinged this thing because she was a real actress, she really cared about her physical form. Surely everything also went in parallel with the arrival of the video. For some generations, directorship has been gaining ground, and now what is required is a very strong physical prowess and a certain beauty too. Some singers really look like movie stars. In any case, having a beautiful voice still rewards.

PB If you had to summarize in one word what the body is for you?

CO A perfect machine, same in its functioning but different for each person.

PB What do you think is one of the most underestimated, or less taken into account, aspects of the body? (And why?)

CO In my opinion, just this thing I was telling you about the body-mind connection. I believe that in general the attention that is paid to the body is from a purely aesthetic point of view. I go to the gym to look good, not to be in shape, but to look good at the beach, to show that I have muscles. Instead, I believe that we must pay more attention to the body precisely because the benefits affect the mind and psyche too. I think that in general, even in schools for example, everything is very focused on the mind. Lessons should be more dynamic, involve the body; you should not only do the hour of physical education but also include disciplines that include the use of the body in the learning process. I believe this is a purely historical and cultural question. Oriental disciplines have correlated the use of the body with religion. Our history, on the other hand, especially the Catholic religion, has led us to this, to the martyrdom of the body, to shame, to not touching ourselves. As there was almost a sense of not belonging to our body, to the fact that we are made of flesh and blood.

PB On the other hand, what aspect of the body is for you harder to accept, to welcome? What do you experience as a limit?

CO The constancy that the body requires. This is also a good thing in reality because it requires you to take time for yourself and for the healing process. I cannot think of a limit of  the physical body itself: seeing acrobats, gymnasts who take the body to the extreme, I realize that you can really try everything. Maybe the dematerialization is something I would like to happen, and quickly, because then we can finally use teleportation, travel through time.

PB What aspect of the body in general, and of your body in particular, would you like to know better, or explore more?

CO I would like to have the flexibility that Cirque du Soleil gymnasts have. And the sense of smell is a sense that I envy other people a lot – feeling the smell of another person, knowing how to recognize that person by smell, knowing how to recognize the state of that person by his or her smell. I didn’t develop it at all. One thing that has always intrigued me a lot, speaking of the senses, is also experiencing the space with the lack of one of the senses, for example without sight or hearing. What is the body without sight or without hearing? You certainly have other perceptions of your own body as well.

PB What do you think is a thing of the body that you should absolutely know, make known, study more?

CO In general, the body should be used more in the learning process. I believe that breathing techniques, teaching not only sports but … yoga, dance, theater,  surely should be studied more. I was talking to a doctor friend of mine who told me how incredible the enormous power that is given to them is because they know the functioning of the body in all respects. But it would be essential to have a minimum of knowledge of the functioning of the body, of its internal mechanisms. And then certainly sex education, which is something that is still very little spoken about. I remember that my mother used to come to make it in schools and there were parents who even opposed to it. Knowing how sexuality works and having a healthy relationship with our sexuality, of whatever kind, knowing and accepting it and understanding it, understanding how it works, and enjoying it, certainly leads to being better citizens.

PB Which portion or part or surface, even a very small one, of your body represents you, or do you like the most?

CO The moles. I like moles very much. I have a birthmark on my shoulder. It’s a mole but it seems like a very expanded birthmark, and perhaps this is what represents me the most. I am always asked if I got burned. They ask me a simple question and I cannot simply answer (“no, it’s not a birthmark, it’s a mole”, “but no, moles aren’t like that…”). And this is the story of my life: I never have a simple answer to things (ed. Laughs).